Dealer Inspections Are A Scam! - The Podcast

"SteveLehto" (stevelehto)
04/28/2016 at 09:00 • Filed to: None

At least twice a week I hear from someone who bought a bad car and is upset because, “The dealer inspected it and told me it was OK.” Turns out it wasn’t OK. Apparently, people need to know more about “inspections.”

When someone wise tells you to get a vehicle inspected, they are not telling you to trust the seller’s “inspection.” They are suggesting you have someone you know and/or trust to inspect it for you. The seller cannot be expected to give you an impartial opinion on the item he or she is trying to sell you. Why would that even make sense?

And no, a Certified Pre-Owned inspection is not something you can rely on either. I cannot count the times I have heard from people who bought CPO cars where “the seller missed something in their inspection!” Yes, it happens all the time and no, you cannot sue them for what they “missed.” That CPO inspection is not a warranty. The limited warranty you got with the CPO car is a warranty and it does not encompass all of the things which the dealer may or may not have actually inspected prior to slapping the CPO designation on the car before you bought it.

Here it is in audio form:

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And the video:

The top shot is just the nicest looking service station I’ve driven by in recent memory (but unrelated to this story).

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This website may supply general information about the law but it is for informational purposes only. This does not create an attorney-client relationship and is not meant to constitute legal advice, so the good news is we’re not billing you by the hour for reading this. The bad news is that you shouldn’t act upon any of the information without consulting a qualified professional attorney who will, probably, bill you by the hour.

DISCUSSION (100)

vondon302 > SteveLehto
04/28/2016 at 09:05

Lakeside gas station. That is nice!

Edit: seervice station no pumps.

jimz > vondon302
04/28/2016 at 09:15

the nice thing I like about living near a lake is that the marina gas stations almost all have ethanol-free gas.

SNL-LOL > vondon302
04/28/2016 at 09:15

The lake will be a Superfun(d) site in no time.

vondon302 > SNL-LOL
04/28/2016 at 09:20

No pumps.

Turbo-Brick > SteveLehto
04/28/2016 at 09:23

Hi Steve, I have a somewhat related question if you don’t mind.

I recently purchased a CPO 2013 Volvo, well within its original warranty period. It seemed like a no-brainer at the time. I didn’t get the car inspected, but with the extended warranty, I figured anything that came up would be fixed under that.

The first couple of weeks of ownership were trouble-free. But then the car started developing a noise. I would describe it as a loud ‘knock!’ that comes from the top of the engine bay randomly when the car is warming up, running, or cooling down (when the car is turned off). It started out fairly quiet and unobtrusive, and has ended up as something I can hear in the cabin while driving.

I took the car to the local Volvo dealer (whom I did not purchase the vehicle from, if it matters), and after a couple of visits and some testing, they ended up replacing the exhaust manifold based on the recommendations of the ‘factory’.

That solved the problem for a week or two, after which the problem gradually returned. On my 3rd trip in for this issue, they tell me that they can’t figure out what it is, and Volvo won’t authorize them spending any more time on it. Their suggestion was to chalk it up as a noise that this particular engine just happens to make, which I immediately rejected, as it’s driving me crazy. As a result, they have to get in touch with the district service rep, and have him look at the car.

The car is not ‘broken’, per se, but the noise is loud and obnoxious, and I can’t imagine that it’s good for the car or my sanity. What are my options if they decline to perform any additional repairs?

I appreciate any advice you can offer. Thanks!

Mojo Jojo > SteveLehto
04/28/2016 at 09:25

For what it’s worth, items specifically marked as inspected on the CPO sheet are something for which you can hold the seller accountable.

I went through this with a CPO Toyota that, upon taking it to be safety inspected after purchase, ended up having less than 3/32" of tread on the inside of two tires. The dealer inspection said it had more than 3/32" across the tread face on all tires. Got a fresh set of Continentals out of that one with just one letter to Toyota USA HQ.

SteveLehto > Turbo-Brick
04/28/2016 at 09:27

Noises are odd in that they, by themselves, are not necessarily the defect (although a loud one could be) but that they are probably a symptom of a problem. Noises often come from parts hitting one another, for example.

Try to figure out what it is before your warranty runs out. Get more opinions. Someone has to be able to figure it out. But the “This is a characteristic of this car/engine” is an excuse I hear often. Need to show how that characteristic is also a defect.

SteveLehto > Mojo Jojo
04/28/2016 at 09:29

No. The fact that you got something as a matter of good will does not make it the law. The inspection is NOT a warranty.

I make that clear in the podcast. If you ask them to give you something outside of the warranty (good will) they MIGHT help you but legally, they do not have to.

Rü$ > SteveLehto
04/28/2016 at 09:30

Sinclair gas station! There's one in Vallejo California down on soscal road!

SteveLehto > Rü$
04/28/2016 at 09:31

This one is in Michigan. I am old enough to remember when they were all over. Gotta love the dinosaur.

NHPilot > SteveLehto
04/28/2016 at 09:33

Thank you Steve....I knew who Nipper was...His masters voice....Man I’m old....

Drakkon- Most Glorious and Upright Person of Genius > SteveLehto
04/28/2016 at 09:33

The dinosaur at the Sinclair in Kirkwood MO got stolen and eventually returned every spring. I’m sure the Kirkwood high school seniors had NOTHING to do with it.

Then one time it was stolen and never returned. It’s only a joke when no harm is done.

My X-type is too a real Jaguar > SteveLehto
04/28/2016 at 09:33

Cool inspection story, I was sitting at the BMW dealer while having my infotainment’s software reloaded (that’s another story) and a woman had brought in an X3 from one of those Used Luxury car places for a PPI from the service department, the service manager, “I wouldn’t sell that car to my worst enemy it has flood damage, I’m shocked it runs” It made me laugh.

SteveLehto > NHPilot
04/28/2016 at 09:34

Did you listen or watch? (In the video, I cocked my head!)

jimz > SteveLehto
04/28/2016 at 09:37

What I picture every time you talk about car salesmen/dealerships:

Kinja'd!!!

“It just has a drawing of an engine!”

Urambo Tauro > SteveLehto
04/28/2016 at 09:38

The inspection is not for you; it’s for the manufacturer.

You know, I’m starting to think that manufacturer warranties are the same way. The customer might be able to get some free stuff, but if everything goes well the warranty only benefits the seller.

I am reminded of those cheap one-year-warranty batteries that seem to last exactly 13 months. They sure knew what they were doing when they manufactured the battery, and they knew what they were doing when they chose to warranty it for that length of time.

Sure, the manufacturer might have to cough up a replacement here or there due to some random defect, but for the majority of customers, that battery fails soon after the warranty is over and they’re stuck having to buy a fresh one.

It’s really the manufacturer who benefits from this warranty. It acts as a reassuring selling point, drawing in more customers despite the relatively low price. It also serves to protect the manufacturer against consumer backlash because they immediately take care of anyone who does have to cash in on that warranty.

SteveLehto > Urambo Tauro
04/28/2016 at 09:40

I had the most amazing phone call the other day. A guy called me with a late-model high dollar car and the steering failed ONE DAY after the warranty expired. The dealer initially told him he’d be OK but the MFR said no. “Out of warranty.”

ONE DAY.

Mojo Jojo > SteveLehto
04/28/2016 at 09:41

That’s surprising. Wouldn’t selling an item with a specifically described trait that did not meet the description be a form of fraud?

It’s not like they said “The car is a cream puff, you’re good to go.” or some other generality that could be described as puffery. They made a material statement of fact regarding the condition of the tires in writing - all tires have x amount of tread - which was false.

If I were buying, say, ball bearings, and the seller described, in writing, the ball bearings as being a particular alloy of metal and of a certain diameter, but they turn out to be a different size or material, would I have no legally binding path to recovering my loss?

Rü$ > SteveLehto
04/28/2016 at 09:42

I’m originally from the Detroit metro area, the oldest gas stations while I grew up were the French branded total gas stations where gas was .76¢ a gal during my high school years.

I don't recall any Sinclair gas stations...but back then I was more interested in getting laid than looking for cool gas stations.

R.S.D. > Turbo-Brick
04/28/2016 at 09:42

Take it to an independent Volvo repair shop. Yes, you will pay out of pocket. I’ve owned two Volvo’s with the first one having numerous issues (mostly electrical - it would eat HID bulbs for breakfast...). What I’ve learned is that Volvo dealer repair shops are COMPLETELY dependent on the onboard diagnostics and have very little ability to diagnose even the most straightforward mechanical issue on their own. The independents tend to have more experienced mechanics that can think outside the box (err, computer), especially for “weird noise” or “it’s not supposed to do that” issues.

Prophet of hoon > SteveLehto
04/28/2016 at 09:44

Good stuff, I’d add that the laws in this area are very state dependent. Some states have made laws that cover this very area, so do talk to a lawyer, early.* Also, I’ve found that giving the dealer a chance to fix the problem (knowing they’re being watched by counsel) has gotten situations like this resolved quite favorably. If not, judges like when you try to resolve the issue before you get before them.

*I’ve had a rash of “too late to do anything about it now” counsels recently.

Wil Haginen > SteveLehto
04/28/2016 at 09:46

Did you take the photo yourself? I really like it.

SteveLehto > Mojo Jojo
04/28/2016 at 09:47

The CPO inspection is done for the MFR by the Dealer. They say they checked those things. I have not seen Toyota’s CPO checklist but the ones I have seen are not worded as if they are promises to the buyer. And many of the items cannot be measured in any meanginful way. What does it mean that they “checked” the rear door handles?

Believe it or not, in most states they could have said” “The tire tread was clearly visible to you when YOU inspected the car; you should have noticed the tires didn’t have enough tread.”

move-over-peasant-I-have-an-M5-in-the-shop > SteveLehto
04/28/2016 at 09:48

I thought the top shot was a Krispy Kreme from the thumbnail on the main page.

SteveLehto > Wil Haginen
04/28/2016 at 09:49

Yes. But it is only a cell phone pic. I was driving and didn’t feel like breaking out the good camera. I’ll go back when there are leaves on the trees and get a better one in a month or two.

SteveLehto > move-over-peasant-I-have-an-M5-in-the-shop
04/28/2016 at 09:50

The colors are similar now that you point it out.

Urambo Tauro > SteveLehto
04/28/2016 at 09:52

One day, huh? Geez, no tolerance for a grace period...

You know, I really didn’t think that I was going to become a believer in planned obsolescence... But I’m becoming more and more convinced that manufacturers are trying to build the least car that they can get away with, while still attracting customers and offering a decent warranty. After that, longevity in the used-car market is of NO concern.

Wil Haginen > SteveLehto
04/28/2016 at 09:52

Have I told you yet that every podcast and photo of yours makes me REALLY nostalgic for SE Michigan?

Turbo-Brick > SteveLehto
04/28/2016 at 09:55

Thanks Steve.

The warranty is good for another ~4 years and ~80k miles, so I’m not in any danger of having it run out anytime soon. I’m simply irritated about being given the run-around so soon after purchasing the car. I’m really hoping that I don’t have to fight them on the significance of the issue.

I guess we’ll see what the district service rep says.

SteveLehto > Wil Haginen
04/28/2016 at 09:56

What part are you from?

I am thinking of doing an outdoor podcast sometime this summer. Will be logistically tricky but I am pretty sure I can pull it off. The audio will be unremarkable but the video should be fun (maybe a park in the background?)

DASVDUB69 > SteveLehto
04/28/2016 at 09:56

I feel stupid for not realizing this... When I bought my GTI it had a full inspection blah blah blah, ended up having at least 2-4 bubbles in each tire, 3 bent wheels, and they sent me off with the car... Luckily I had a nice chat with the salesperson’s manager, got brand new tires a new wheel and 3 of the bends fixed like they should of been in the first place... Next car I buy I will be inspecting myself.

SteveLehto > Turbo-Brick
04/28/2016 at 09:57

Did you check NHTSA for TSBs and to see if there are any consumer complaints? If there are other people with the problem, then they might know more than they are letting on.

Mattwrotethis > SteveLehto
04/28/2016 at 09:58

I’m the parts guy for the used car department of a large car dealership that sells multiple new lines and has, I kid you not, over 2000 used cars in inventory. We have a team of 8 techs turning out up to 150 used cars per week through inspection in addition to their usual customer pay and warranty work (we have one dedicated used car inspection guy in case they’re all to busy for UCIs).

While we INSPECT every car pretty thoroughly, we don’t REPAIR everything we see. The technician makes his recommendations on what repairs the car needs for safety, maintenance, wear and tear, and cosmetic reasons, and then the used car sales manager, general manager, or owner either approve or deny said repairs, and then dictate whether that car goes to our main pre-owned lot, our budget/cash pre-owned lot, or to the wholesale auction.

Just because it was looked at doesn’t mean it was fixed, and just because it was fine when we looked at it doesn’t mean it will be after you buy it. Some cars sit on the lot for 6-12 months before they sell at a dealership as large as the one I work for. In that time, anyone and everyone could have test-driven that car, and there’s no telling how they treated it.

On top of that, no inspection is all-inclusive, and there are no crystal balls. Before I took my current job, I used to be a tech that did UCIs for another dealership. I had a Chevy Cavalier that I inspected, replaced the valve cover gasket that was leaking and the battery after getting approval from the used car manager, and handed off the car and keys to their inventory department when I was done, with a clean bill of health for the car. I had even run a battery/starter/alternator test when I did the UCI. The car sold that afternoon, and came back two days later with a bad starter. That starter had tested fine two days before, there was no way to tell from that test result that it was going to fail. It happens. Luckily, we’d made a lot of money on the car, and the sales manager was a pretty decent guy, so he had the pre-owned department pay for a lifetime-warranty reman starter from one of the parts stores and the labor for me to install it.

SteveLehto > Mattwrotethis
04/28/2016 at 10:00

Thanks for the note. This is pretty much what I have heard from many sources. That, and many of the CPO cars are pushed out front with the CPO sticker in window minutes after being traded in (with NO inspection).

BigBlock440 > Urambo Tauro
04/28/2016 at 10:02

Well, yeah, that’s the whole point of a warranty. The manufacturers wouldn’t do it if it didn’t help them. And why would anyone really complain if the item doesn’t break in the time frame the manufacturer said it wouldn’t?

heavysquad > Urambo Tauro
04/28/2016 at 10:03

Doug what’shisname did a story about extended warranties yesterday thinking that they are a good value to manufacturers that have a bad reputations for reliability but whose cars are actually pretty reliable.

TheOtherOneWheelPeel > Urambo Tauro
04/28/2016 at 10:03

Are you surprised? Any company is really only truly in the business of making money, not *cars in this case.

ScottsMerkin > SteveLehto
04/28/2016 at 10:03

On my Honda I bought certified back in November, I wanted to make sure the oil had been changed, new air filter and cabin filter, plus the CVT fluid changed since it was coming up on 50k when I bought it. So I got the sales guy to agree to it and have it written down. Of course when I go in to Service department for my first oil change, they tell me I need the CVT fluid change since its dirty and a new cabin air filter. Of course these things are like over $300 but luckily I was prepared, brought my purchase paperwork and showed them that it was supposed to have been done before I took delivery. About 10 minutes later the Service Manager comes out, apologizes, says they made a mistake and mixed up my car service with another customers, that my car didnt need either and did my oil change for free. Could have been an honest mistake but makes me glad I keep all records for everything I do to my cars

xenol > Urambo Tauro
04/28/2016 at 10:04

I’d imagine if there was a grace period, then it’d be like a “Give a mouse a cookie” problem. What if something else breaks the day after, and the day after, and then 30 days later? You got all these warranty claims after the fact, why not now? Why not 90 days from expiration?

If anyone gave a grace period, someone would abuse and milk it to hell.

Urambo Tauro > xenol
04/28/2016 at 10:06

True. The line has to be drawn somewhere...

Hirsch > SteveLehto
04/28/2016 at 10:08

I learned this lesson the $800 way. Bought an 8 year old, 95 Grand Cherokee with 65K on the clock. I was told it had undergone the dealers 125 point inspection. 2 days later driving down the highway it blew the rear freeze out plug. In 65K miles and 8 years the antifreeze had never been changed. I asked the dealer if they had tested the antifreeze, they said they checked it. Meaning they checked to see if it had antifreeze in it.

Any used car I buy now goes to my mechanic for an independent inspection and I’ve avoided two pieces of shit because of that mechanic.

SteveLehto > Hirsch
04/28/2016 at 10:09

Yes, they checked it by looking at the overflow bottle. “Yep, there’s something in there.”

Wil Haginen > SteveLehto
04/28/2016 at 10:11

Near Troy. I remember very fondly the Woodward Dream Cruise in August, going to see movies at a small theater in Birmingham, getting burgers at a place called Hunters (I think that’s what it was called) just off of Woodward. I once saw a souped up Cadillac STS on I-696 just booking it, he had to have been going at least 140 based on the speed differential between his car and mine.

....OK that does it, I’m going to search for jobs back in Michigan.

911Ducktail > SteveLehto
04/28/2016 at 10:11

and nothing was done with goodwill? that seems rather suspect. especially on a high end car.

Craigger > Turbo-Brick
04/28/2016 at 10:11

Sales guy here. That’s BS. Somethings hitting and they just don’t want to have to cross a few extra t’s and dot some i’s in the warranty request.

Stomp your feet until they provide you with a loaner and get it fixed. Search forums for a related issue. If you point them in the right direction and show that you’re willing to fight for your right (not only to party) they will listen and step up. Or at least, should.

SteveLehto > Wil Haginen
04/28/2016 at 10:12

Hunter House. I grew up in Birmingham about a mile east of that place. I worked for a while at the Mobil station at 15 Mile and Adams.

911Ducktail > xenol
04/28/2016 at 10:12

OEMs have goodwill warranty policies for just this specific situation, even moreso when it comes to high-end manufacturers - if we had a Porsche or Audi that did this 1 day out of expiration its going to be covered. Its more likely that this guy calling an attorney with a possible case is probably not telling the whole story

SteveLehto > 911Ducktail
04/28/2016 at 10:13

I have seen manufacturers do remarkably stupid things.

-Tom- > SteveLehto
04/28/2016 at 10:13

Former service adviser here. Just talking about customer pay prepurchase inspections I always told the technicians to nickel and dime the inspections. Every little thing they could find that could bring it back to showroom condition aside from just cleaning things. Most things people were okay with, like the VW emblem missing from the engine cover, but others, like a cracked through suspension bushing, they may not have been. I always told the customer these [items] were what is considered safety, these [items] are wear items and should be done sooner than later, and [these] items are purely superficial. I had a handful of customers buy cars and bring them promptly in to have several items fixed because we were so thorough and straight forward. The tech usually knocked some of his own billed time off as well because they came back.

It felt good to be very thorough and show the customer you are there to do what they told you, not trying to cull them into buying some used car.

Wil Haginen > SteveLehto
04/28/2016 at 10:14

Nostalgia growing...

Turbo-Brick > SteveLehto
04/28/2016 at 10:16

I couldn’t find any relevant entries. I even looked at a similar model-year (2012) in the database.

Appreciate your assistance!

911Ducktail > SteveLehto
04/28/2016 at 10:17

yeah fair enough, but on its face it sounds fishy. if we had a customer come in with a $200,000 panamera turbo that ate a power steering rack 24 hours after its warranty punch expires not only are *we* going to eat the cost, Porsche is going to too, because that guys panamera is his 3rd car and he’s going to buy 3 more in the next 48 months.

ETA: fishy as in the dude is telling a tale, not you. You’re good SteveLehto!

David E. Davis > SteveLehto
04/28/2016 at 10:18

is that an actual open Sinclair gas station?

move-over-peasant-I-have-an-M5-in-the-shop > Urambo Tauro
04/28/2016 at 10:19

Advance apologies for the wall of text coming. For some reason, this computer doesn't allow me to use the enter key in kinja. But to reply: Sort of. Warranties are generally based on the manufacturer’s calculated Mean Time Between Failure, or Critical Failure (MTBF/MTBCF). Which, for a vehicle, is aggregated among all subsystems, and the MTBF for a subsystem is an aggregate of all the sub-subsystems, so on and so forth all the way down to individual parts. This is also negotiated with marketing, because being able to sell a longer warranty is a good sales point. So the manufacturer receives warranty information on all the parts in a subsystem, or on the subsystem itself (BMW might pay out on a busted transmission, but if it's a GM or ZF transmission, it was sold to BMW with a warranty based on the sub-manufacturer's calculated MTBF, in which case BMW will send that bad transmission back under its warranty). The manufacturer calculates that, for the majority of their cars, the calculations show that 99% of vehicles will have no critical failures before 1,000 miles, 95% no failure before 5,000 miles, 92% before 10,000 miles, 90% before 20,000 miles, and 87% before 30,000 miles. After 30,000 miles, the number shoots up to 25% of vehicles showing a critical failure. The manufacturer can then set their warranty to be 30,000 miles, which will keep them from having to pay for the vast majority of critical failures. This data all comes from testing and evaluation and aggregate calculation, so it's not 100% accurate, but the math is sound enough and backed up enough by testing for the actuaries to sign off on it. Do they know that, say, your stereo will eat itself at 31,000 miles? No. But they know that the vast majority of their cars will be problem-free through 30,000 miles, and that after that, the cars start having issues. For an entire vehicle, it's a lot harder, with a ton more variables. But when you get down to individual parts (like a battery), as long as your manufacturing is good and you have good QA/QC, it's really easy to time a part warranty for right before the part is scheduled to fail.

Chris Furlough > SteveLehto
04/28/2016 at 10:19

Steve, this is potentially timely. I’m looking around at used cars in other states. I thought that having the car taken to a franchised dealer for the brand, and paying for a pre-sale inspection would be “safe”. I figured paired with a carfax report, this would be a good 1-2 punch.

Are you suggesting that paying for that inspection is basically useless?

offyatindy > SteveLehto
04/28/2016 at 10:19

Reminds me...I bought a house once and the 25 year - and perhaps a month - old furnace failed. Furnace had a 25 year warranty. I was kind of impressed.

Ninety-9 > Mojo Jojo
04/28/2016 at 10:20

“I went through this with a CPO Toyota that, upon taking it to be safety inspected after purchase, ended up having less than 3/32" of tread on the inside of two tires. The dealer inspection said it had more than 3/32" across the tread face on all tires. Got a fresh set of Continentals out of that one with just one letter to Toyota USA HQ.”

Let’s be clear, what happened is that the dealer/hq threw you a bone. They had no legal obligation to do anything about it, but they found it somewhat cost effective to take care of your one request.

muddyknobs > SteveLehto
04/28/2016 at 10:21

Thanks for all of the insight Steve, I really enjoy your articles. On the subject of inspections, what are your observations regarding End-of-Lease inspections? Do they tend to be fair and honest or really just a scam to get you back in the dealership buying (or leasing) the same brand again?

Hirsch > SteveLehto
04/28/2016 at 10:22

That is exactly what they did. The mechanic at this dealer told me as much.

Wil Haginen > SteveLehto
04/28/2016 at 10:31

I have a question relating to “what constitutes fraud”.

http://www.bmwusa.com/standard/conte…

There’s a link on there for the actual checklist PDF (for some reason, a direct link won’t format properly). In big bold red letters on the lower right side of the first page, it states that a BMW cannot be CPO if it has inconsistent maintenance history.

Suppose I buy a CPO BMW, and during my own cursory inspection the engine oil looks clean and new. Then a few weeks after purchase, it turns out the VANOS system is just caked with sludge from old oil that clearly had not been changed regularly, and no on is able to produce consistent maintenance records. If I brought this case to you, would you say that we had legal grounds to proceed?

noele952 > SteveLehto
04/28/2016 at 10:31

I was always under the impression that the inspection was for safety, to make sure the car is road worthy, IE brakes tires etc.

Beyond that, I can’t see how they have any more responsibility over a used product beyond the manufacturers warranty. Buyers need to be take a little responsibility for themselves. Used cars are a risk, hence the lower prices.

jepawa > SteveLehto
04/28/2016 at 10:32

I would like to comment about how dealerships get a bad rap , but there are still legitimate dealerships that want you to drive off in a safe vehicle. The momentum dealership in Houston declined to sell me a car that they agreed to sell me pending their inspection of the vehicle. In turn since they could not sell me that one they dropped the price of nicer car with fewer miles to the price of the other one and loved that car up until I traded it last year. (still regret trading it. it was a 2010 vw cc sport.) Not all dealerships are "stealerships", just keep in mind that usually a third party inspection may be negotiated when purchasing a vehicle.

SteveLehto > David E. Davis
04/28/2016 at 10:33

It is a service station but they have no gas pumps.

SteveLehto > Chris Furlough
04/28/2016 at 10:34

NO. (Did you listen to the podcast?) I am talking about people who buy a car and say “The dealer inspected it before he sold it to me. Therefore, I did not need to do my own inspection.”

TripleXS > SteveLehto
04/28/2016 at 10:35

My girlfriend bought a car from a manufacturer with a great reliability record (*cough Honda*), and it began losing performance shortly before the 5 year/60,000 powertrain warranty expired. I had her take it in as quickly as possible so we didn’t get stuck with the repair bill. After sitting at the dealer for 2 weeks while they attempted to diagnose the issue, and with the warranty expiration quickly approaching we were beginning to worry the dealer was stringing us along so they didn’t need to honor the warranty. So we grabbed the car from them and took it to a different dealership across town. Same thing, a week went by and they couldn’t diagnose the issue, now we’re down to 3 days left on the warranty and the car is still running like it has half the power it used to. Fearing the worst we took it to a 3rd dealership who, wouldn’t you know it, could not diagnose the issue. The warranty expired and since it no longer mattered I set about diagnosing the issue myself. With just a volt/ohm meter I discovered, quite quickly, that the MAP sensor and both O2 sensors needed replacing. And that was it. I hate to jump to conclusions, but I honestly think all 3 dealerships just let her car sit, waiting for the warranty to expire since it was so close.

phatplat > SteveLehto
04/28/2016 at 10:36

Returned my wifes Jeep Liberty because so many things were wrong with it, the dealer just said it passed “inspection”. One of the brake rotors had more peaks and valley’s than the Grand Canyon. Scum bags.

SteveLehto > muddyknobs
04/28/2016 at 10:36

I dropped off a car at the end of a lease and the dealer signed off on the vehicle. A few months later, the lender sent me a bill for a few hundred dollars of damage the dealer “missed.”

Again, their interests are adverse to yours so watch out.

SteveLehto > Wil Haginen
04/28/2016 at 10:38

I wouldn’t take that case but I admit I have never been asked on one. I’d have to read all the BMW literature but I bet they have small print disclaimers that say the CPO is not a warranty.

SteveLehto > jepawa
04/28/2016 at 10:39

And you will note that I never actually use the word “stealership.”

Like anything else, there are good and there are bad.

Skamanda > SteveLehto
04/28/2016 at 10:40

The lesson I learned the hard way, is that CPO doesn’t even mean they looked at or fixed anything on the car. It’s literally just a sales term to convince the customer to buy the car.

I bought a 2003 Impreza from the Subaru dealer in Ann Arbor (who, after the fact, I find that nobody has any good stories about), as a CPO. With 5% of the brake pads left, the spark plugs that the car was built with still in the engine (at 48k miles - that one cost me an engine, out of pocket), the wheel well liners were cracked from an accident that never got repaired...there were several things that would’ve been common sense to address if they’d actually done an inspection. Still, their CPO process just says they have to call it CPO - it doesn’t imply that the car has even been looked at. Says so in the fine print.

SteveLehto > Skamanda
04/28/2016 at 10:41

And this lines up with what I hear about time and time again.

Thanks for the note; sorry about your experience.

Wil Haginen > SteveLehto
04/28/2016 at 10:41

Hm. And how about if I approached it not as a “BMW needs to fix my car under warranty” but as a “CPO adds 3k in price, I simply want 3k difference since the car never should have been CPO”?

SteveLehto > Wil Haginen
04/28/2016 at 10:43

Again, a loser. All CPO says is that you get that extended limited warranty that you couldn’t get with a non-CPO.

Wil Haginen > SteveLehto
04/28/2016 at 10:44

Bloody hell, I retract my other question I just posted about recovering the differences for a CPO vs non-CPO BMW. This answers it quite definitively.

xanthophyll > SteveLehto
04/28/2016 at 10:44

I paid $400 to have my house ‘inspected.’
A trained monkey could have done a better jobs at finding problems. Home inspections are the biggest scam.

Wil Haginen > jepawa
04/28/2016 at 10:45

I’ve had good luck with Momentum VW in Houston.

Wil Haginen > SteveLehto
04/28/2016 at 10:46

I appreciate all the legal advice you give out here. It’s eye-opening how different the world is from how it seems to be, and how it actually is (from a legal standpoint).

skwimjim > SteveLehto
04/28/2016 at 10:46

I have purchased several CPO cars (Honda, Toyota, Ford, and Chevrolet) and always request the CPO inspection report before I buy the car. I then take the car for my final test-drive to a parking lot across the street and run through the checklist. In all cases, items were checked off that were clearly not inspected and rectified; corroded battery terminals, plugged up cabin air filters, disconnected EGR hose, dirty air filters, rusty door bottom hems, non-functional interior controls. The CPO inspection report is a farce.

SteveLehto > xanthophyll
04/28/2016 at 10:48

Depends on the inspector. I’ve had two done (by different companies) and they both found lots of things (99% minor) which I had not noticed. I never found out about anything they missed but the thoroughness of what they did find impressed me.

sklooner > SteveLehto
04/28/2016 at 10:48

The salesman said I looked good in that car, was he lying ? will I have to drive with a bag on my head again ?

SteveLehto > sklooner
04/28/2016 at 10:49

No, you can take that to the bank ALL DAY LONG.

jepawa > SteveLehto
04/28/2016 at 10:50

no I wasn’t say you said that, just most people when its a dealership conversation is usually referred to as a "stealership" or I got bent over by them. just you normally here nothing but negative comment from, never the good. just wanted to share a good experience that I had. fyi I still like the article:)

Pastey > SteveLehto
04/28/2016 at 10:53

As a manager of dealership chain’s “reconditioning” dept, I can tell you that I run my dept in a way that is NOT a scam. As a long time gear head, racer, used car buyer and hater of sales people, I can assure you that my process is more stringent and in-depth than probably most in the country. Since we are a GM dealer, I follow our CPO handbook to a T. While we aren’t perfect and discovering EVERY problem a car might have in just an hour and a half is difficult, we stand behind our work and fix things we miss (either my dept. eats it or sales forks it out). This isn’t a sales pitch (you’ll notice I’m not giving a dealer name). Just letting you know there are some dealers out there who care for their job and the product/service they deliver. Not all of us are in cahoots with sales to pull one over on the customer. In fact, the owner’s of the chain that employs me regularly tells me that I can do “whatever I need" to make sure we deliver quality used cars regardless of what a sales manager tells me to do (or not do). Everyone should be cautious and do their due diligence when buying a used car but fear tactics and generalizing is petty and disinengenuous.

Wil Haginen > SteveLehto
04/28/2016 at 10:55

So how did that play out??

StarryNight17 > Mattwrotethis
04/28/2016 at 10:59

Interesting perspective. It’s also worth adding that while YOUR dealership may be honest about actually doing a thorough CPO, there’s little stopping Johnny’s Local Cars from doing a crummy job or even just straight up forging the form without doing any inspection. For the consumer, what happens?

The *best case* scenario is that something goes wrong immediately, and the problem occurs in a way that can be verifiably demonstrated was due to an error on the form. The dealership pushes back when you complain, so you get to file an expensive and time-consuming lawsuit.

The far more likely scenario, though, is that the issue is non-specific enough that it can’t be linked to the CPO and/or takes long enough to show up that they can claim it was due to your driving.

Chris Furlough > SteveLehto
04/28/2016 at 11:05

Thanks! And, of course I didn’t listen to the podcast! This is the internet! :-D

HiMyNameIsJayAgain > xanthophyll
04/28/2016 at 11:05

Definitely depends on the inspector.

You should check out some of the home inspector online forums just to see how passionate a lot of them are about their jobs.

My inspector was excellent. He found and accounted for every issue — even things that didn’t really matter but that a homeowner might find annoying or unusual.

SteveLehto > Pastey
04/28/2016 at 11:09

Of course, you could listen to the podcast and respond to what I am actually talking about (and not just knee-jerking to the headline).

SteveLehto > Wil Haginen
04/28/2016 at 11:11

I paid it. It wasn’t worth fighting and the lease was a co-lease with someone else who didn’t want to fight it.

Rand0nS > SteveLehto
04/28/2016 at 11:18

Agreed, the home inspector I used was fantastic and saved me lots of money in the long run since the builder agreed to correct the items.

Rand0nS > Skamanda
04/28/2016 at 11:19

CPO means you get a warranty.

Skamanda > Rand0nS
04/28/2016 at 11:35

Brake pads and spark plugs are wear items. The engine was killed by a plug coming apart in the cylinder, and gouging up the head, piston, and cylinder wall. Believe me, I tried to fight that, but in the end the house always wins. They weren’t even willing to help out with the cost of repair, they were so unconcerned about having blown off their CPO “inspection” and “repairs”. In the end, I did the brakes myself, and I had to take out a loan to pay for the $7700 the engine replacement cost me.

Now a days I’d replace the engine myself, but I know a good deal more about wrenching, and Subarus, than I did back then...

Shamoononon drives like a farmer > SteveLehto
04/28/2016 at 11:41

Wow, where do you live that a repair shop has water front property?

SteveLehto > Shamoononon drives like a farmer
04/28/2016 at 11:42

Michigan. We have more lakes than you can shake a stick at.

Baskingshark > SteveLehto
04/28/2016 at 11:50

Saw the exact car I was looking for come up for sale this morning, got all excited, then saw the small print;

“Price includes all costs to be paid by a consumer, except for licensing costs, registration fees, and taxes.price does not include $1995 dealer 200 point inspection prep fee.”

$2,000 inspection fee? I think not. Keep lookin’

MrEvil > vondon302
04/28/2016 at 11:52

It likely had pumps at one time. However, vintage gas pumps are worth some BIG money just as display pieces. The pumps were likely long gone before the current caretaker of that station dolled it all up.

nooooooooo!! > Skamanda
04/28/2016 at 11:56

How often do you have to replace spark plugs in Imprezas? I thought most cars were every 100k miles.

DynamicWeight > Urambo Tauro
04/28/2016 at 11:57

Hmmm, I always thought a warranty was the answer to the question: How long will this last? When I go to buy something, I know everything has a limited life span, so this is the manufacturers way of saying “This thing your buying will last ______ years/months and we GUARANTEE it. Anything beyond that is your responsibility.” Which I am perfectly okay with.

More to the point, if people didn’t shop price so damn hard, these sorts of things would be less prevalent. Consumers are to be blamed for this more than manufacturers (but not a lot more). I say this as a consumer who likes nice things and pays prices for them that make people balk.

tr6rtiger > TripleXS
04/28/2016 at 12:01

Thats strange. In most situations, if the Repair Order (RO) was created prior to the expiration of the warranty, it should still be covered.

Regardless if the car sat for two weeks, since it was in before the expiration, they should have repaired it. I would have called Honda and tore them a new ass.

operagost > Skamanda
04/28/2016 at 12:02

My 2004 Alero came with 100K mile spark plugs, so I’m kind of surprised that a Subaru’s were clapped out at 48K. Regardless, they should have been checked.